Thursday, March 6, 2008
Organic Church?
The author of Pagan Christianity is taking the position that the New Testament church, (organic and small) was the model that God designed and the one that provides the greatest opportunity for everyone to be involved and to use their spiritual gifts. Would the church we see in Acts be as effective today in our culture in the U.S.? Would a totally organic church reach and disciple people to a greater degree than the church we see today in the U.S.?
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I'm about 3/4 of the way through the book and am thinking....
I was talking recently with a lady who was healed and saved in a Pentecostal church, another who found Jesus in a dieing Baptist church, another who found Christ at a Billy Graham event, another who found Christ in prison and the list goes on. It is amazing that no matter how goofed up we become as a church (the people), God continues to use us to perform His good will and purpose.
So your question was: "Would a totally organic church reach and disciple people to a greater degree than the church we see today in the U.S.?"
I don't know, but it might be a whole lot more fun. Imagine one-on-one sharing of life and God in an intimate setting where all have the opportunity to contribute to the welfare of the church in body, soul and spirit. No wait! That's what we do in the EPIC life group now. I think I get it! I don't have to imagine!
I finished the book. Wow! That will be a tough sell to the local church. According to the book as I read it, pastors should pick up their last check and look for another job. Anyone updating their resume? My best friend pastor always wanted to flip burgers on the ski slope. This may be his chance. :)
Would a first century church reach people today? So I asked this question to a gentleman that comes to our coffee shop regularly. He was raised in a non-denominational church in Illinois, but now considers himself an agnostic. I described a house church to him and it peaked his curiosity, but he said he probably would not go. His reason? The Bible. Whether the Bible is taught in an institutional church or house church, he has beef with the authority of the Bible. He believes it is one of many sources of authority.
Perhaps it would work with a generation in which the institutional church is totally foreign (there are more and more Americans who fit this category). Good things to think about, in the meanwhile I need to update my resume and workout my wrist muscles so I can start flipping burgers.
I enjoyed the book too. Wow. Here's a cool interview with some heated discussion by a pastor.
http://thin-edge.org/2008/02/27/the-thin-edge-hosts-joint-interview-with-barna-viola/
Jennifer
No doubt the winds of change are blowing and the church in order to be the church will take on new forms...Organic...if this means house church...is a phenomenal failure in the U.S. a haven for saved people and not multiplying...the institutional...if this means organized meeting in a building...too is lumbering along and not changing culture....I for one am not quitting who I'm called to be and the role I play...whether 'institutional or organic' I have a calling and a role...would I be more effective or less effective if I did not get 'paid'? Would I be more effective if I flipped burgers? I'm not so sure...If institutional means bureaucratic and uneffective and organic means fluid and alive then I do pastor an organic church...do we have some hang ups...sure...do we have some structures that aren't in the N.T. absolutely...Do I think church will change and should yes...will it make it better...some yes, some no...it's not the methodology...it's the message and the power of the lives that deliver it...
Having just finished the book, I was left wondering if this neo-boomer church would really allow for an individual to be fully involved and engaged in the functions of the church.
Then again Viola may move into deconstructing the modern functions of the church bring us back to a "new testament understanding of church in function".
What really intrigued me was the proof texting that Viola made for his own arguments. While avoiding the role of Elder and the plurality of elders, he camped on the term Pastor and Clergy responding more to the Catholic and Orthodox traditions than Baptistic or Reformed ideals. Or for instance separating the culture of giving in the NT with the mandate of tithing in the OT. It seems he makes sweeping judgments against certain modern doctrines dismissing the benefits because of the historical roots.
Why can't we have redeemed doctrines that focus people to Jesus rather than deconstructing the modern church to return us to a New Testament ideal. The church cannot remove itself from the traditions of life in a secular society throughout history just as it cannot remove itself from the culture in which it is currently engaged.
I am surprised that Barna allowed his name to be placed on this bit of "historical research" I thought he would be more engaging of culture dissecting the trends of the church in impacting the world through the house church movement.
I am also surprised by the lack of international discussion of the house church movement as it pertains to those house churches in more hostile territories.
Did anyone find it amusing that Viola kept quoting Will Durant? It seems every chapter has at least one major quote by Durant.
Once again, God has called me to a time and place such as this to use me in a culture that I am familiar and prepared to reach through who I am and in the context of a 1950s style Southern Baptist church plant. Who would have known that God would use the totality of Christian history, flawed as it is with its improper doctrines, to reach the people of Superior through a plant such as this.
Praise God He is willing to our us in our sin to reach people for Him.
Who is Will Durant?
Will Durant is a 20th century secular philosopher most noted for his 13 volumes on how history and philosophy of certain eras interacts with modern thought. He has one 1,000 page book devoted to Caesar and Jesus, he has another devoted solely to Napoleon.
He is the deconstructionist's philosopher challenging thought and reason as it relates to religion and cultural development.
If God can use a nation like Israel to bring a Savior, and a denomination like SBC to send out missionaries throughout the world, and use us, frail and weak, for his glory, then I'm not surprised he can use a dysfunctional pagan church to accomplish his redemptive mission. To God be the glory. I do agree with many of his findings. I'm not ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater yet.
yeah, I was talking with one of our leaders about Pagan Christianity. He was telling me that he was listening to a local Christian radio station and they were doing a fund drive to build church building in China. He said that's all the church in China needs is buildings. Talk about an effective way to institutionalize the house churches in China. Talk about making the local church an easy mark for the government authorities. I read about how the underground house churches in China are living out Acts 2 kinda churches in the face of much persecution and wonder what having a building would do. Like Constantine, I think this Christian radio station means well, but could they be doing more harm?
Thanks Ken for the 411 on Will Durant. Hey, I did some squats the other day. It's been too long.
Hey, Jeff are there any people in the United States of America doing the house church thang effectively?You know reaching unbelievers, making disciples, releasing them into ministry, multiplying, and transforming the culture? Or is this1st century house church stuff all theory? Or is this really a function and form argument? The house church being a form, rather than a function.
Ikki,
Your story about building a church in China brought to mind my mission trips to southern Sudan the past two years. While worshipping with the tribes in the mountains of Sudan I felt a little strange that the pastor, a member of the tribe, had built a church building in the middle of the small village huts. There were about 15 or so worshipping in this large open air facility that could seat 100 or so. The previous year they were worshipping under a tree and the worship seemed so much more authentic than when we worshipped in the church. A house church model would seem much better to suit their culture than the western model of churches. But the pastor had been trained at seminary the western style of worship. His initial plan was to disciple men to be pastors of each individual group of huts or village. He seemed to abandone that idea and instead try to get all of those in the surrounding villages to his church service. He was frustrated because not more of the surrounding villagers attended his church service.
John, I feel you on that. Seems like we diss the early western missionaries who went to South America, Asia, the Polynesians islands, and Africa and not only brought the Gospel but also our cultural church traditions too. I think we in the west think that every church in the world has to have a building. No building = no church. What other cultural traditions are we promoting and propagating????
We need to start raising money to buy elaborate desktops and projectors for churches in Sudan so they can start using powerpoint slides and showing videos.
And we also need to start raising money to build parking lots for the churches in Sudan and China. Plus a special sign that says "PASTOR'S PARKING" Cuz we all know, more parking = more people.
Imports and Exports go both ways...the reason we are trying Cell was Young Ey Cho and the reason we are going House Church is becaus of China...whose doing the importing and exporting...the bottom line is if something is effective in one region does not make it successful somewhere else...I did worship in a vibrant mega church in Kenya and I worshipped in a hut there also the imported Mega church was very effective. Just because it works in Amercia doesn't mean anything...but Just because it Works in China doesn't mean anything either....
what works even in NW San Antonio doesn't work in other parts of the city (or in other cities or towns across America for that matter). One of my homeys is a pastor of an urban church on the westside, he laughs at the suggestion of cell groups that meet in homes. They've tried, unsuccessfully, to start cell groups. He's got a bunch of ex-Mexican mafia folk in the church who have bounced from house to house and apartment to apartment with little stability. But the folk in his church are naturally community oriented and enjoy sharing life together in a very unstructured way.
It's kinda that Henry Blackaby or Rick Warren adage, see where God is working and what He is using and join Him in it.
I believe we are trying to provide the best of both at GP with cell groups meeting in homes during the week and then coporate worship on Sundays. We say we are a church of churches and encourage each Life group to be the "church" in an intimate setting. The home "Life Groups" take the church to the neighborhoods. But there are many advangages of what the larger church can provide, leadership, ministry to children and youth for example. And there is something about a larger group getting together to worship God. Why not have the best of both?
I'm hung up on the very proposition that the "model God created for the NT church" is documented. I see lots of description of how first century followers of the crazy Galilean Rabbi assembled together out of loving devotion to their Messiah, and how they handled horizontal relationships...I've read descriptions in Acts about some of the trademarks of their gathering time (hymns, food, prayer, teaching, etc.)...Yet, I see no red letters in my Bible for that subject. I see no prescription language, only description. Probably just a bad Greek translation I'm reading.
I know few people who can actually speak to the "Church" at a global level. It's hard to even find those who can appropriately speak about the pulse and genesis of the local Church at a city, state, regional or even country level. History is messy, and we like to read cliff notes that prooftext our local predicament.
I once attended an Assyrian Apastolic Church where 800 Chaldeans (yes, Babylonians of old) gathered to worship in un-morphed Assyrian dialects. In the "fellowship hall" equivalent where the Eucharist was shared, there was a giant mahogany door with odd character writing/inscriptions. I asked the head priest what the significance was. His answer hit my ears like an alien describing his home planet: "This is a door from Mongolia dating back to 800 A.D., when the Christians of Nineveh (who were God-fearers from the days of Jonah that responded to the missionary journey of Thomas, Bartholemew and others) sent missionaries into central China. They took the Gospel and translated it into local tongues, but with paper being scarce they would write it on the main gates of cities so all could gather and read. Many of those people were killed in later years, and some of the last remnants brought artifacts of the missionary work back to remind us of our duty to take the good news abroad. You probably didn't even know about that period in history...because you're an American evangelical who looks at church history as spawning from Rome and the Reformation. Missionaries went places the IMB never has centuries before there was even a Protestant missionary."
I doubt Barna is incorporating truly global church history into his synopsis of "the way is was, is, and should be."
I went to Dublin 2 years ago and spent time on "St. Patrick's Hill." It's the site he crossed the straits and preached his first service to the local "pagans." They didn't read, value books or have a great way to focus learning. So he started erecting giant crosses with 12-24 key Bible scenes etched on them from which he would teach visually. He'd raise up a local believer to then take the responsibility of cycling new believers through each of the pictographs, and thus the Irish church was born. 1,500 years later the cross was reduced to a sentimental icon of cultural identity and the functional, pragmatic intent was lost.
"Pagan" is powerful to shatter false idolatry of form, structure, and tradition. The liberty found in realizing how non-physical and mosaic the true essence of the assembly of His Body was is a powerful revelation for many. The question remains, "so what." Form, structure and traditions are cultural tapestries that should be coincidental utilities of local communities seeking to best engage their culture for the Kingdom. Once the false esteem of pseudo-sacred status is removed, they still have practical value. So if everything we employ today is "optional" and beyond the so-called "model" of First Century...now what?
Eat, drink, be merry...for tomorrow we'll wake up and find ourselves in the same historical cycle as countless leaders before us.
yo, i got this devotional commentary called the Devotional Commentary (catchy title) by Lawrence Richards. It's like reading the Bible Knowledge Commentary in 365 daily chunks. The good thing is that the book also has pictures. In commenting on 1 Corinthians, they have a picture of a 1st century pagan feast (with meat offered to idols). It seems as though the pagan's got together and ate to their gods regularly as an act of worship. It seems as if even the 1st century house churches (with their love feasts and such) were spin offs of these pagan feasts. So maybe even the 1st and 21st century house churches have pagan roots. I think it all boils down to form and function. What are the biblical functions of the church and what forms do those functions take.
Wait a minute, nobody else has feasts after a great harvest to God? At my house we tend to wrap the burnt offering in bacon, place it on the grill. Prepare ground tubers in a garlic cream sauce and serve it with young stalks of green sticks.
Of course this is after slaughtering the animal in a prehistoric fashion with bow and arrow while dressed in camouflage and doused in doe estrus.
Bacon wrapped tenderloins with garlic mashed potatoes and asparagus are the only way to celebrate a successful hunt in God's great outdoors.
On our mission trip to Honduras I spent a day with a church plant of a Baptist church in La Ceiba. This church had been started but failed because the pastor was too old and didn't have the energy or the desire to do the work needed to get one going.
Since then two laymen who have secular jobs have helped start a ministry there and offer worship services and ministry with children. They have 70 children coming on Sundays and 25 adults. The pastor of the sponsoring church still wants a full time paid pastor. I told the pastor I believe unless he finds a very dynamic man the church will fizzle out. The two men who are leading now will pull back and leave it up to the "paid" pastor. This is a real example of how we can stifle God's work by demanding a traditional model of church.
here's a spoof video on the book. really funny.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hslswIal9u4
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